Calling all conspiracy theorists! You’re wanted on the Oathbringer Reread this week! We have secret societies, deception among the leadership, calls for murder, charges of idiocy… Yes, if you couldn’t tell, we have a Taravangian interlude this week. Join in to figure out what he’s up to—or at least what he thinks he’s up to.
Reminder: we’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the ENTIRE NOVEL in each reread. No major Cosmere spoilers this time around, folks. But if you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Taravangian
WHERE: Urithiru
WHEN: Sometime after 1174.1.4.3
Taravangian is having a genius day. He fools his testers into thinking that he’s not having a “so intelligent he’s dangerous” day and proceeds to begin tearing up the Diagram, looking for hints and codes that cannot be deciphered when the pages are bound. When Adrotagia calls him out for his deception, he shoves her out of the room and continues, finally coming to the conclusion that Dalinar is not to be killed, now—they’re past that point. Now he must be dethroned as leader of the Coalition, to make room for Taravangian to take his place and hence be in a better place to negotiate directly with Odium.
The Singing Storm
Title: Taravangian
Heralds: Palah; Truthwatchers, Learned/Giving. Ishi, Bondsmiths, Pious/Guiding.
L: So, my guess is that these Heralds are here because this is how Taravangian sees himself. He’s learned (clearly, he’s having a genius day) and he sees himself as guiding the world (or part of it, at least) towards salvation.
AA: There’s a lot of truth to that, Lyndsey, and also that despite his self-perception, he’s doing almost exactly the opposite of the roles he’s claiming. I would also submit that Palah could be a subtle hint that the casual line that the Diagram “hadn’t seen the effect the second son, Renarin, would have” is far more important than it appears at the moment. Ishar also could be a nod toward the repeated references to the Bondsmith that Taravangian is planning to elbow aside. Interestingly, the things he doesn’t understand about Renarin and Dalinar are what make his plans fail.
Icon: Double Eye, indicating an interlude chapter.
Bruised & Broken
The way he thought, breathed, even moved, implicitly conveyed that today was a day of intelligence—perhaps not as brilliant as that single transcendent one when he’d created the Diagram, but he finally felt like himself after so many days trapped in the mausoleum of his own flesh, his mind like a master painter allowed only to whitewash walls.
L: So much about Taravangian makes me sad, but this more than most. It’s almost like he’s suffering from dementia.
AP: I think dementia is a very good comparison. Alzheimer’s patients in particular can “sundown” and be more lucid during the day than in the evening. It can be extremely distressing to them in more lucid moments to know that they are experiencing a cognitive decline and not being able to do anything about it.
AA: The problem with this view of Taravangian is that when he has greater “lucidity” he becomes an absolute monster. In this state, he sort of pities—and totally despises—the person he is when he’s normal; the person he becomes when he actually does experience a cognitive decline, he considers revolting.
L: That’s a fair point, Alice.
“He’s almost to the danger line,” Dukar said.
L: Danger line. Interesting. The supposition here appears to be that the more intelligent someone is, the more dangerous they are. I’m not sure if I buy this. There have been some incredibly intelligent people in our history who didn’t turn into tyrants.
AP: I took this to be a commentary on Taravangian himself, not all super intelligent people. He, in particular, is a danger to others when he has a day that is past the “line”.
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Oathbringer
AA: I’m with Aubree on this. The days when Taravangian’s intellect is high, his compassion and empathy are proportionally low. This is not a generality; it’s a specific peculiarity of his unique Boon and Curse arrangement. It’s not merely that he’s “not very empathetic,” either; he gets unreasonably “pragmatic” about other people to the point that he seriously thinks people who annoy him should be summarily killed.
L: Oh, that’s a cool theory. So for him in particular, it’s more like a see-saw. When his intellect goes up, his empathy goes down, and vice versa.
He carried the Diagram into the room, and then shut himself into blissful self-company, in which he arranged a diamond in each corner—a light to accompany that of his own spark, which shone in truth where others could not venture…
L: Wait. What? Is he just speaking in flowery terms of his own intellect here, or is there more going on with this “light”?
AA: IMO, this is reflecting his delusions of godhood. He firmly believes that when he’s having a “brilliant” day, he’s smarter than any being in the Cosmere—Shard Vessels and immortals notwithstanding. He believes—or he’s convinced himself—that he himself is truly the messiah that Roshar needs to save… well, whatever he himself decides is worth saving. On a meta level, I can’t help thinking that the “light” he considers his own intellect is somehow linked to the light that Odium likes to present himself with, but I don’t have anything solid there.
“Get me a copy of the surgeon’s words upon my birth,” he said to those outside. “Oh, and kill those children.”
L: DUDE.
“Are you…”
“No,” he said. “I haven’t become him again. I am me, for the first time in weeks.”
“This isn’t you. This is the monster you sometimes become.”
“I am not smart enough to be in the dangerous zone.”
L: Pretty terrifying that he played them, though I’m glad Adrotagia saw through it.
AP: Yep, and I think this is why they do need a “danger line” for him.
AA: Adrotagia is far wiser than Taravangian… but I worry about what she’ll support just because it’s coming from him. I find it deeply creepy that smart-but-not-compassionate Taravangian is also deceptive. I mean, the whole “kill those children” is awful, but it just shows him openly writing off anyone he considers lesser than himself (which is everyone, of course). The decision to hide his intelligence so they wouldn’t place limits on him… that worries me. No one but Adrotagia can see through it with any degree of accuracy, and I wouldn’t put it past him to deliberately incapacitate her next time so that she can’t stop him.
AP: I think that is a distinct possibility, and now I’m worried for her!
L: Ugh. I hadn’t considered that until now, but now that you mention it… yeah. I can absolutely see him doing that.
He had the cord wrapped around his neck, the surgeon had said. The queen will know the best course, but I regret to inform her that while he lives, your son may have diminished capacity. Perhaps this is one to keep on outer estates, in favor of other heirs.
The “diminished capacity” hadn’t appeared, but the reputation had chased Taravangian from childhood, so pervasive in people’s minds that not a one had seen through his recent act of stupidity, which they’d attributed to a stroke or simple senility.
He’d overcome that reputation in magnificent ways. Now he’d save the world.
L: So this is why he chose to go to the Nightwatcher in the first place. To prove to the people who said he was dim that he wasn’t, that his knowledge would save the world. Not entirely philanthropic, is it? He’s saving the world out of spite.
AA: Hmm. I think he went to the Nightwatcher in desperation, because he believed Gavilar’s visions were for real. The spite and self-centeredness comes out when he’s “smart” because then he loses all respect for “anybody who’s not me.” Granted, that’s got to be present to some degree in his mind anyway in order to come out on days like this, though.
AP: It seems to be a pretty clear spectrum though, from high empathy to high intelligence. I think on his high empathy days he really does want to try to do good, while on his high intellect days it’s more about power & survival.
L: This is a good observation, that his perception of the event is currently colored by his lack of empathy. Thinking back on it now, I’m willing to bet that less-intelligent Taravangian would have a completely different recollection of his reasons for going.
Also, side note, but this turned out to be a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy, didn’t it? Everyone said he had diminished capacity, so he… went and made himself have diminished capacity most of the time.
AA: Frankly, I like him better in that mode.
Squires & Sidekicks
…[Malata and Adrotagia] were growing in companionship as Adrotagia attempted to secure an emotional bond with this lesser Diagram member who had suddenly been thrust into its upper echelons, an event predicted by the Diagram…
L: Interesting that she was involved with the organization even before awakening as a Radiant.
AA: Yeah, I’ve wondered about that. Not only someone already involved, but then she gets chosen for the one Order the Diagram said would suit them. I guess… the Diagram was right that the Dustbringer spren would find their kind of person attractive? It makes sense if I squint a little.
AP: It very much makes me wonder where the information for the Diagram came from. Is it just extreme logical interpolation based on the research Taravangian has already done? Or is it actually supernatural? Because if it’s limited to what someone with Taravangian’s history and resources could figure out on a day with perfect problem solving skills, then it’s still going to miss things because Taravangian isn’t omniscient.
AA: I’ve wondered about that too. If it’s based solely on what Taravangian already knows, and he’s filling in the blanks with logic, plus doing a little further extrapolation, there should be a lot of holes in the big picture. After the first two books, I had assumed it was just “extremely logical and intelligent prediction” based on his existing knowledge, but given the scenes from the end of Oathbringer, I’m now leaning toward supernatural. I just don’t see how Taravangian, no matter how much research he’d done, would have all the information to construct the Diagram as we see it later.
“…Now leave me alone. You’re stinking up the place with an air of contented idiocy.”
He shut the door, and—deep down—felt a glimmer of shame. Had he called Adrotagia, of all people, an idiot?
Well. Nothing to do about it now. She would understand.
AA: I’m adding this in at the last second, so unfortunately Lyndsey and Aubree don’t have a chance to add comments, but this made me so angry. Adrotagia is, on the whole, both smarter and wiser than Taravangian, but he takes her understanding for granted. I’m sure this is largely an artifact of “genius mode,” and if he remembers it in “compassionate mode” he’ll apologize. I’m glad to see, at least, that there’s something deep down that can feel shame.
Places & Peoples
…only four blank stone walls, no window, though it had a strange rectangular outcropping along the back wall, like a high step, which Maben was dusting.
L: Chalk this up as another Urithiru oddity.
AP: I keep waiting to get an explanation of what all of these oddities are actually for!
AA: I know, right? I’m always wondering whether Sanderson has something specific in mind for every one of these things, or if he occasionally throws in a feature just to remind us that we know next to nothing about the place. “Don’t get too comfortable here, kids…”
“Calculating the total surface area for farming at Urithiru,” he said, “and comparing it to the projected number of rooms that could be occupied, I have determined that even if food grew here naturally—as it would at the temperatures of your average fecund plain—it could not provide enough to sustain the entire tower.”
[…]
“You think they advanced the growth by use of Stormlight-infused gemstones, providing light to darkened places?”
L: I’m wondering why they’re not considering Soulcast food as a possibility.
AP: Soulcast food is the obvious answer to me too. But I think there’s probably also a magic greenhouse when they turn the city on.
AA: Soulcasting seems pretty obvious, considering that the original inhabitants didn’t even have to rely on fabrials, but instead had two complete Orders who could just do it. (Side note: I wonder if an Elsecaller or Lightweaver can make better food than the people who use the fabrials.) But I agree with Aubree again; when they get this place fired up and running, there will be plenty of food-growing capacity available.
Weighty Words
L: This doesn’t strictly belong here, but since it doesn’t belong anywhere else either, I’d just like to take a moment to note that while we’re in genius-Taravangian’s point of view, Sanderson employs more advanced and complicated sentence structure than he usually does. The sentences are longer and more varied, thereby implicating subconsciously to the reader that the mind we are in is more advanced.
AA: Hah! Nice catch. I’d noticed the seriously long and involved sentences, which are nonetheless grammatically correct and coherent. I just hadn’t put it together with being in genius-Taravangian’s head.
Meaningful/Moronic/Mundane Motivations
Was there a way he could prevent any but the most intelligent from learning to read? That would accomplish so much good; it seemed insane that nobody had implemented such a ban, for while Vorinism forbade men to read, that merely prevented an arbitrary half of the population from handling information, when it was the stupid who should be barred.
L: Oof. Danger line, indeed. He’s veering awfully close into tyranny territory here.
AA: He’s the most dangerous sort of tyrant, too—the one who firmly believes that he’s doing it for the greater good rather than mere selfishness. This puts a little different spin on C. S. Lewis’s comment on tyranny: “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive.” He’s talking about “moral busybodies” when you put that in context, but the last line of the quote is still frighteningly apropos: “The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.” Genius-Taravangian isn’t into tormenting people, but he’ll happily kill them if he thinks it’s useful, and he’ll do it with the approval of his own conscience (such as it is). Then Kind-Taravangian will come along and be properly remorseful, but he’ll be completely unable, and mostly unwilling, to do anything to rein in Genius-T.
The initial explanation of the Dalinar paradigm, from the catechism of the headboard, back side, third quadrant. It had been written in meter, as a poem, and presaged that Dalinar would attempt to unite the world.
So if he looked to the second contingency…
The Diagram hadn’t seen the effect the second son, Renarin, would have—he was a completely wild element.
L: Okay, so why is Renarin a wild element, here? Does it have to do with the influence of his corrupted spren?
AP: I wonder if whatever type of spren Glys is can’t be seen by the diagram? Maybe because both can “see” the future to an extent so they cancel each other out?
L: That’s an interesting theory. Sort of like when two Mistborn burned Atium at the same time…
AA: It’s almost like the Cultivation-based Truthwatcher spren, corrupted by the Odium-formed Unmade who isn’t sure she likes belonging to Odium, makes for an unpredictability that the Diagram can’t cope with. Maybe seeing—or interpreting—the future is based on understanding history, but Glys is something with no precedent to guide their interpretation.
“We must not assassinate Dalinar Kholin. The time has passed for that. Instead, we must support his coalition. Then we force him to step down, so that I can take his place at the head of the monarchs.”
L: Yeah. That’s gonna happen, Taravangian.
AA: It came frighteningly close.
“We can break [Dalinar], and I can take his place—as the coalition will see me as non-threatening—whereupon we’ll be in a position of power to negotiate with Odium—who will, by laws of spren and gods, be bound by the agreement made.”
[…]
“We cannot beat the enemy; so instead, we save whatever we can.”
L: Okay so, ignoring the fact that the coalition isn’t likely to hand over the reins of leadership to someone who they view as senile, let’s talk about this “save what we can” thing, because man… this is definitely a point of contention amongst the fans. Some of us think that Taravangian’s noble for making such a difficult choice—the burden of which will fall squarely on his shoulders, should he have his way. Others feel as if he’s jumping to this conclusion far too easily, that there’s another way, he’s just not looking hard enough for it because the “easy” solution has presented itself.
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AP: It’s not that easy. He thinks he’s doing the right thing, and that his sacrifice (mental incapacity) justifies the cost to others as well (shared suffering). But that’s extremely dangerous thinking. Zealots are the most dangerous because they have an absolute conviction that they are doing good while actually doing great harm. Taravangian is so caught up in his own intelligence that he doesn’t think that it’s possible that he may have made an error (or several errors). The first rule of Dunning Kruger Club is that you don’t know you are in Dunning Kruger Club…
AA: He also sees his Diagram-writing self as God, without ever thinking about the source of that knowledge. He has some massive blind spots.
Give me the capacity to save us.
L: So… this might not mean what he thinks it does. Capacity in this context could mean any number of things—it might not mean mental capacity. It could be something else entirely, and knowing what we do of the Nightwatcher’s other deals, I’d bet on that Ryshadium. The Nightwatcher reminds me of D&D campaigns I used to play when I was a kid, where the DM would give us an item that granted wishes, or have us encounter a genie—and then would delight in trying to mess with our wishes to give us something other than what we intended. Now, whether or not the Nightwatcher’s intentions are good is up for debate. If Cultivation is directly involved, like she was for Dalinar and (presumably) Lift, the wishes granted seem to be done with the best intents of the world at large, even if they weren’t quite what the asker wanted. But the Nightwatcher alone? I don’t know. It seems… capricious, to me. Like Loki. I have little to base this on, however, unless Aubree or Alice have any concrete examples I’m forgetting…
AA: No examples I can think of, but I really believe that Taravangian is too quick to accept his Intelligence as The Solution… I think the twist to this is going to hurt him badly.
AP: I don’t necessarily think it’s twisted wishes per se, but that both his enhanced mental and emotional capacity will be important. He just doesn’t see the use of the empathy yet. I also suspect that the “good” and “bad” days are not random, but that he is being given the capacity that he needs for that day’s challenges.
Well, then. Join us in the comments with your thoughts on Taravangian and his Diagrammatic shenanigans! Next week, we’ll be back with Interlude 6: the next installment in Venli’s novella, where some really twisty antics take place and we learn much more about the Fused et al.
Alice is looking forward to her daughter’s school Christmas concert tonight. It promises to be awesome—and not solely because of her daughter’s participation… Heh. Also, she assume’s y’all have heard the news about Sanderson’s mysterious Secret Project by now. If not, check out the blog on his website.
Lyndsey is most certainly not having a genius day, but she gets by. If you’re an aspiring author, a cosplayer, or just like geeky content, follow her work on Facebook or her website.
Aubree is inventing a new language to better express her thoughts about the next interlude.
I’m with you thinking that the capacity for empathy will prove to be at least as important as the capacity for intellect. Maybe something to do with getting the Listeners and humans to work together. Maybe some huge twist getting Rayse and team radiant to work together.
I would be very interested to see which one of the boon granters gave him his boon, and what it really is.
Love this reread, as I just love focus on the “villians” Anyway, I’m beginning to think the Diagram might have been a “gift” by Cultivation in order to maybe have a plan. Isn’t it stated in lore that the only ones who could see the future are either connected to the Shards? I know that Vorin believes that Prophecy is dangerous and forbidden, so it makes you wonder what the real reasoning for it is. Yes, it is because the ardents went power hungry, but there could be more reasoning for that. Whatever the Diagram is, it’s clearly up to interpretation, yes it predicts things, but how much is in it that needs to be guessed? I’m really thinking of Good Omens when it comes to this, where the propheices needed to be interpeted and they might just get a few things wrong.
I’ve always thought, what if Taravangian has his boon and curse backwards? He asked for the “capacity” to save the world, what if that’s really supposed to be his empathy, not his intelligence?
I agree with the sentiment that both his empathy and intelligence were necessary to “save us”. In fact, it sounds like on his more normal days he recognizes that both were his boon – the curse being that he wouldn’t have them at the same time. Now that I think of it, it seems important that both extremes hate the other. When he is ultra-intelligent, he hates his “pathetic” self, while when he is ultra-empathetic he can do little but weep for the creature he has become. So yeah, his intelligent version is neglecting how important the empathy is. In that vein, I think it is actually very important and fortuitous that Odium does visit him on a “normal” day (perhaps weighted toward empathy slightly). While Dr. T had hoped to negotiate from “strength” I shudder to think what he might have done in that state – how much he would willingly write off or do. Might he have even used the hidden writing as leverage?
As for the farming discussion, I think it was just a way for Brandon to remind us that Urithiru is only meant to be lived in when the Sibling is engaged.
Finally, I believe the diagram is only written based on inferences and knowledge that Dr. T had. Remember, he was king of Karbranth. He was very well read, connected, etc. He started with a lot of knowledge. Now, add to that “perfect” intellect and you can make a lot of logical leaps. I feel that Odium confirms this as he marvels that this was done “without access to Fortune or the spiritual realm”. So, it seems, that while the capacity was supernaturally granted, he made his predictions based only on intellect.
Whitespine @@.-@ – Oooooh. I’d forgotten about that “without access to Fortune or the spiritual realm” bit. I wonder if that’s true, or if Odium is unaware of something Cultivation gave Taravangian. I’m pretty sure he’s not lying, but he could be wrong. Or… he could be right. Either way… ::steeples fingers:: Fascinating, Captain.
We have a WoB on the Renarin wild-card element:
Also, I noticed the pace of the re-read has slowed down. Are we pacing it out now in relation to when book 4 will come out?
There have been some incredibly intelligent people in our history who didn’t turn into tyrants.
Because they had morals and eventually wisdom. Taravangian seems to have neither of these things on any day. When he’s dumb he does pity his victims, but lacks the moral conviction to take any action.
I have to disagree that Taravangian’s empathy is his actual boon or that he’s going to be able to use empathy to defeat Odium. The teeter-totter effect is the problem. It’s a spectrum so the smarter he gets, the less empathetic he gets. At the far right of the spectrum he’s a genius who doesn’t care about anyone, but he’s able to function. At the far left of the spectrum, he would have super compassion for everyone, but he would be to stupid to use it for anything. I think it says somewhere that on his worst days (his most empathetic) he was just a drooling imbecile incapable of even talking.
Another awesome chapter! Time to run down my thoughts
First, I think it is an excellent point regarding soulcasters, but I also theorize that edgedancers and truthwatchers could use regrowth to accelerate the growth of the plants, producing far more food than originally projected by Taravangian.
Second, Brandon has confirmed that Renarin’s future sight acts like two people burning atium in that Renarin seeing the future will cause him to act differently, just from the knowledge of the future alone. WoB below
Questioner
So the scene at the end of Oathbringer, when Odium is confronting Taravangian and uses futurwsight to expand upon the Diagram, we have this blacked out section with Renarin’s name linked to it
Brandon
Yes
Questioner
is that because Renarin’s abilities interfere with odium’s futuresight similar to how electrum interferes with atium?
Brandon
Any time that someone else is seeing the future in the cosmere, it’s going to have ripples against your ability. Like they are – you can’t – it’s the same sort of thing that if… someone who has access to atium is going to mess up anyone else’s future sight in anyway, because once you use that it’s going to cause you to act differently, which then – and remember future sight is not very good in the cosmere anyway. but yeah, it’s just gonna mess things up.
Third, I am very interested to see what it would take to destroy or make faulter Taravangian’s confidence in the Diagram? I am also curious to see, if that were to happen, would he take the same path as Amaram, and flee to Odium? Taravangian is an excellent villian/antihero, all depending on how you view him. Can’t wait to see more of him!
@2Steven Hedge
Excellent point and reference with Good Omens!
@4whitespine
So forgot to include this in my general response, but Brandon has gone on record in saying that Taravangian has glimpsed into the Spiritual Realm when he was at his most genius. WoB below
ShadowSgt
Taravangian, When he made the Diagram he said it was “his brightest day”. Would you say that he was more towards the Cognitive realm or more towards the Spiritual realm”
Brandon
Spiritual
@6 Austin
Ack, you beat me to the WoB. Great job!
The step in the room sounds like a university lecture room where the professor stands on the higher floor.
If Adrotagia recognizes the danger too-smart T represents, why doesn’t she realize that the Diagram’s suggestions are likely no good idea? Does she just support him because she likes him or does she actually believe in the Diagram?
@10 – You should probably scan the comments first ;)
@12 Austin
True, but I like to read the article and get my unaltered impressions down first, because otherwise I become so focused on replying to comments, that I didn’t have a chance to appreciate the re-read. It’s a Catch 22 lol
Is there WoB confirming that Taravangian’s level of intelligence truly does change every day? His interlude in book 2 got me thinking that only his empathy fluctuates (Adrotagia talking about underestimating average people). He always had the intelligence to destroy the world and the capacity he needs is the ability to stop himself. So on empathetic days he ”locks out” his intelligence and sabotages himself and his efforts.
I see it as similar to how Cultivation said Dalinar’s boon/curse created the potential to either perfect Dalinar or create a weapon for Odium. In Taravangian’s case, to save the world he needs high enough empathy (boon) to NOT carry out the Diagram, but the fluctuation (curse) creates the risk his empathy will drop to the level where he can create the Diagram in the first place.
I suppose it’s splitting hairs, but I like the idea that he always possessed the thing he thought he needed.
@14 Zodda
There are WoBs that do specifically say the level of intelligence, but I think they are loose enough that your theory could still stand. I have posted them below
Argent
Can tapping enough Feruchemical zinc allow one to match taravangians intellect on the day he created the diagram? or are the effects different somehow?
Brandon
The effects are similar, but not exactly the same. zinc is speed of thought specifically – while what happens to taravangian increased multiple types of intelligence, not just raw processing power so to speak
Questioner
A girl asked what was up with taravangian, since it seemed a rough break between the tottering old man and the scheming mastermind that szeth meets at the end
Brandon
brandon said that taravangian used the old magic, and that he wakes up each day with a different IQ. sometimes he’s a genius, sometimes he’s an idiot. so what he does is he writes up math puzzles for himself in the evening, and if he cannot get a certain score in the morning the guards have orders to just take care of him and keep him away from the important decisions for that day. that way he keeps his effect under control.
Remember that Cultivation put “hooks” into Dalinar to allow him the POTENTIAL to become something other than a tool for Odium. Isn’t it likely there was more to what she gave Mr T also? Something else that won’t be apparent to Odium?
As for seeing the future, it only takes one small change to ripple out to create a new future. Jashna loved Renrin and despite all that we think of her as non-emotional, she did not kill him for being corrupted. That wasn’t future he had seen.
Mr T, for all his so called good intention has pretty much sold out humanity.
It seems that with Taravangian’s hyper-intelligence comes the kind of hyper-rationality that sociopaths “enjoy.” His intelligence extends his rationality to the point that killing children seems like the proper course of action. He has limited time at this heightened level of intelligence to save the world. Therefore, eliminating the distractions (i.e. the children) is a rational course of action. Since he’s accepted the fundamental premise that the Diagram is the only path to saving the world, eliminating distractions while on this higher level of intelligence is the only rational action. While some might say that he can just have them remove the children from his hearing, there is a non-zero chance that they might return, and the risk-to-reward calculations don’t make that concession rational while he is in God-mode. Further more, killing the children sends a message to everyone else not to distract him. So, rationality without limits would dictate that killing the children is the most logical course of action in that moment.
Rationality, when taken to logical conclusions, is almost alway at odds with morality. Empathy is the constraint that stops rationality from doing individual harm. I don’t know that Taravangian’s empathy is lowered in God-mode so much as he doesn’t have enough of it in the first place to prevent the hyper-rationality that comes with his hyper-intelligence from pushing him beyond normal human boundaries and definitions of right and wrong, or good and evil.
Most hyper-intelligent people with IQs above 200 lean towards sociopathy. They are constrained not by empathy, but by consequences. Rationality also tends to push people towards their own self-interest, and very, very rarely would murdering someone be the rational course of action when self-interest is the priority.
Taravangian’s IQ in his current state (or when he wrote the Diagram) would be several orders of magnitude greater than 200, and in his specific case, self-interest isn’t relevant. He knows the world is ending. He’s a freaking King, and for all intents and purposes a God of his particular cult: the Diagram. Having the children killed isn’t against his own self-interest in this case. He won’t be punished for it, and there is little time left for secondary or unintended consequences to affect him.
As far as the statement that not all (really, hardly any) hyper-intelligent people haven’t turned into tyrants in our world, that is likely more of a fact that the vast majority of hyper-intelligent people born into this world aren’t born Monarchs with absolute power. And their hyper-rationality would lead them away from the kind of bloody revolutions that can place sociopaths in power. After all, they have the same fear of pain and death that the rest of us have.
@@.-@, @5:
I always viewed the Diagram as basically what the Observers do in Fringe. Its all based on math and reason. You’re accurately predicting what decisions humans will make based on observation and advanced computation, and creating statistical likelihoods. Then, you’re creating actions and stimulai that will make it more likely that your desired outcome will occur.
re: food in the tower. could the extra food be related to the mysterious sibling?
I’m rolling with the ‘T is a plant’ theory. In that vein the Diagram is designed to give Taravanginan just enough wins to justify his faith in the document while still helping Team Honor. I mean the plan was good. Dalinar is one budding unforseen Radiant away from dying before bonding. Kaladin saves him 2wice from the Diagram. And then his latest plan actually did work and it took a Unity moment to fail him. Even with that he still hasn’t lost his place in the coalition, is still in place as a potential knife in the dark. The stated aims of the Diagram aren’t what Taravanginan thinks they are. Even brilliant T cannot see past his biases and that too is reinforced by the Diagram.
As much as I like seeing this side of Taravangian, I hate him so much more when he’s like this. The only guilt or remorse for the whole day is for calling Adrotagia an idiot, not for wanting to murder a children’s choir or anything else. I love the idea of it and how he’s magicked himself into it, but reading it he’s even more creepy than usual.
The way he uses (abuses) the Diagram to make it make sense is fabulous. The cutting and pasting made me laugh-it reminded me of my kids’ school projects.
Today is a low intelligence high empathy day for me, so that’s all I’ve got
I don’t know how to post links on a phone, but there’s a WOB somewhere that implies Mr T had some supernatural help with the Diagram.
@16 goddessimho
Yeah I am also very firmly in the camp that believes Mr. T is a plant lol. I do find it ironic that the theory basically says it does not matter regarding all of Taravangian’s moral and ethnical quandry. Ultimately every action he takes thinking he is doing one thing, is actually doing the other that will still have a potentially positive result. With all this gambling of Cultivation, I feel like her symbol should be a deck of cards and dice lol.
@17 Anthony Pero
This kind of starts to branch off into philosophy, but pure logic governed by self interest does not necessarily mean harm. For instance it is logical through self interest to realize one would gain a greater benefit over a longer period of time by working with a group than by working alone, or abusing the system within the group. Logic dictates over a long enough period of time, the group will become aware of the abuse, and penalize the abuser, or if the individual is acting alone, the group will produce greater resources with a wider range of skills, and be able to protect said resources better than the individual alone. Society and laws in many ways is based on that logical reasoning. Laws restrict us, to protect us. We give up certain freedoms for safety. I give up my ability to stab anyone I see on the street anytime I want, for the sense of safety that a random person (ideally) will not walk up to me and stab me randomly for no reason due to the laws in place. It is logical for my self interest, to function within a society rather than alone.
@19 FSS
That is the prevailing theory, though as the article says, there is also radiant soulcasters, and radiant regrowers to think of.
@20 EvilMonkey
I agree whole heartily.
@21 Joyspen
I agree. That is part of what makes Taravangian such an interesting individual to me. We see two very diametrically opposed aspects of him. One makes us sympathize with him, while the other makes us abhor him. Really makes you question your thoughts and beliefs.
@22 necessary eagle
If you are referring to the same one I am thinking of, I posted it above that Taravangian is closer to the spiritual while in his genius intellect. if not, let me know some keywords and I will be happy to help locate it.
Okay, back at my computer now. Ah, the joys of ctrl+c.
It’s not exactly confirming that there was something else going on there- but I think it strongly implies it.
RE: creation of the Diagram
From the snippets we’ve seen of the Diagram (in the epigraphs in the last part of Words of Radiance http://stormlightarchive.wikia.com/wiki/The_Diagram), I think it is safe to say that there are pieces that can be easily understood, but most is a lot that is open to interpretation.
I also feel the fact that it was created in a seemingly random fashion, where adjacent pieces of floorboard have different messages in possibly different languages or codes, implies an outside agency influenced the creation.
After all, why wouldn’t he (as a super intelligent person) have written everything in a more logical fashion, at least grouping ideas in the same place.
I guess I forgot that at the end of King T’s day in Interlude 5 he came to the conclusion that humankind on Roshar was doomed. Odium, the Singers, the Fused and the rest of the Voidbringers would be victorious. Too bad that the deal King T struck give almost all of humankind to the wolves (no offense meant to wolves). Too bad he did not consider that he would have to negotiate with Odium on a day when he was far from smart.
Turns out on the day he met with Odium, King T lacked the capacity he thought he would have. He abandoned way more than he could save. The deal is doomed. The citizens of Kharbranth will not survive more than 3 generations if King T’s deal goes through.
I agree with goddessimho @16 that King T pretty much sold out humanity.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@26: That last scene with T and Odium is very open to interpretation, but my reading of it was that Smart!T and/or Cultivation used Dumb!T to hide the real plan from Odium.
For growing food, I don’t think we can discount Lift’s growth surge. For her, she burns more food making stormlight than she can grow, but other Radiants could grow food rapidly. As we learned from Jasnah’s attempts to soulcast the jam, its hard to make good tasting food, but just growing food according to its nature should be far more consistent.
As for the Diagram, I think we shouldn’t discount Cultivation. As others have pointed out, Brandon has said Taravangian is closer to the spiritual realm. One of the shards is practically guaranteed to be responsible at some level. Honor is dead and Odium isn’t quite getting enough so I think its Cultivation. Killing Dalinar was in place in case that project didn’t look like it was working out and he was turning to Odium.
I do think we will see at least one twist with him, empathy is more important via decisions or counseling Dalinar, both must be combined, or the Diagram is a long con. The Diagram could be designed not to tell him what to actually accomplish, but to trick him into doing the right thing for the wrong reasons. If Cultivation / his genius self knew that he would be confronted and read by Odium, certain portions of the Diagram could have been hidden and the rest concealed under layers of misdirection to make sure that certain things like Kaladin were overlooked, to set Taravangian up as an eventual double agent. In this scenario, he isn’t meant to succeed directly, instead the true goal of the Diagram is to indirectly cultivate the world and characters in the way they truly need to go while flying under Odium’s radar. Could set up some big reversals in the future.
We’re getting way ahead of ourselves, but it was always clear to me that Taravangian did not deduce the Diagram from pure logic. Remember that in my construction, Taravangian is Dalinar’s doppelganger[1]. Both lighteyed, older royalty, each received mystical gifts that affected their minds when they visited the Nightwatcher, each inspired by Gavilar to their current course, both feel the responsibility of saving the entire world personally, each a father and widower, and each in different ways underestimated before the current crisis. They are ketek-like mirror images in that they are also opposite in some ways: one warlike and brutal, one scholarly and gentle. One an excellent father (Taravangian), one originally terrible. One involves his children in everything he now does and trusts them perhaps more than is justified, one loves his children dearly but they never quite even get “on stage” in the books.
Dalinar got Stormfather visions, Taravangian got what have to be (IMO) Cultivation visions as a reflection of that.
[1]”Dalinar’s doppelganger” is a fun phase to say. Try it yourself!
I don’t have much in-depth analysis to say about this interlude as there seem to be people who can do that far better and know far more than I. All I will say about this Interlude is that I love it and it shows the pure genius of Brandon Sandersons writing.
Taravagian in this interlude is a cold unsympathetic arrogant monster yet he is also hilarious. “Have the Children killed” being to me the best Villain line ever written since Alan Rickman demanded that they “Cancel Christmas!”
Sorry, lost my train of thought there by laughing at the idea of all the children suddenly faltering and stopping in their singing while soldiers sort of look at each other and are confused.
Scath@23:
I definitely don’t disagree with that in principle, I feel like I covered it in:
But it only goes so far. Self-interest eventually will lead people to make #1 the priority, because immediate felt needs — and the instincts that come along with them — are very hard to ignore. The more rational you are, the less the long-term view makes sense, because there is no promise of a long-term in the first place. Sociopaths can play along for a while, but at some point, the math doesn’t work out in society’s favor.
@24 necessary eagle
What web browser do you use when you pasted the WoB? I’ve tried copy pasting WoB in the past, and the formatting always goes screwy and it won’t post. Since it works for you, I will try again and see if things have changed since then. Thanks!
@25 RogerPavelle
Excellent point and I agree with you. What I write now is more just for discussion and to play devil’s advocate a bit. Perhaps the reason it was written in code, was because he knew in that moment, it would take them time to decode it, so they would discover the information when it is needed, rather than before which would confuse the issue. What do you think about that?
@26 AndrewHB
If we are to believe Taravangian’s interpretation, then his “smart” self predicted he would be his “dumb self” when confronting Odium. “Dumb” Taravangian realized there was a note in the Diagram that told him exactly what to say at that moment, and he just read it out to Odium. Now whether what he did was selling out humanity or not is another discussion, but if Taravangian is to be believed, then what he said to Odium was predicted by “smart” Taravangian.
@27 necessary eagle
I agree :)
@30 supermanmoustache
LOL!
@31 Anthony Pero
That’s why I said this gets into philosophy where there are no definitive answers, just varying schools of thought. It could be said all action is inherently selfish, even action to help others because of the nice feeling it gives you when you do so. For me at least, pure intelligence and logic would go more on the long term than the short term, because the short term yields lesser gains. A sociopath can live alone, and thereby not need to share his or her food, but eventually he or she will become sick, and unless that sociopath is a trained doctor, they will need others or die sooner. A sociopath can be a trained doctor and live alone, but unless they are a trained farmer or hunter, their food supply is going to be meager and they will not survive the winter. The sociopath can attack and steal food from the farmer, but eventually the farmer who is part of a society will gather a group and stop the sociopath resulting in small immediate gains that are suddenly and quickly stopped. A sociopath can live within a society, manipulating it to abuse others for his or her own gain, but over a long enough time, another individual with the same level of intelligence will arise, realize said abuse, and check mate the sociopath. Meanwhile if the sociopath lived within society genuinely, he or she would derive better benefits, and have the society to draw upon when dealing with other sociopaths that have malevolence in mind when they arise. So it could be seen in a glass half full or half empty, and since we are discussing abstract concepts that cannot be definitely proven, it really just comes down to what we each believe.
@32 Scath
I think that is a sign of outside influence rather than a conscious decision by T. If I wanted things to occur or be acted on in a specific order, I’d number them or create a flowchart or use some other logical construct.
@33 RogerPavelle
LOL I like that answer a lot and totally see what you are saying
To clarify, what I meant was that the person reading that section would need to be at a certain time, emotional and mental place, after certain scenarios have occurred, to be in the proper head space to react to that information in a specific manner to result in certain actions. So the ye olde conundrum that if you knew when, where and how you would meet the love of your life prior to the right time to know, would you still have lived your life, dated the people you dated, learned the lessons you learned, that would have brought you to that place, to be the person you needed to be to fall in love and be fallen in love with by that person despite this foreknowledge? Or would you need that knowledge held from you, so you could go through all that crap, ultimately bringing you to the one you were always meant to be with. A not quite so sappy example, rather well done, comes up in Sergei Lukyanenko’s Night Watch series. I highly recommend you read it, if you have not already.
(now I say all of that to explain why in code, not necessarily that Taravangian is the sole cause. That’s why I agree with you. Cultivation is definitely involved.)
Thinking about the whole “capacity to save us” scenario and Cultivation not giving you what you expect, does this mean that Taravangian’s Intelligence and writing of the Diagram isn’t actually the thing that will save them, but merely be the thing that causes Humanity salvation.
I may not have explained that very well, I mean is Taravangian being used here as a pawn by Cultivation in order to influence the actions of the people who will actually save the World. Thinking about it, I sort of like it because it proves that although Odium knows everything about the Diagram as is shown during his meeting with Taravangian, ultimately the Diagram is just a smokescreen for the actual event that will defeat him.
Also, I took the blackening/hiding of Renarin’s name as a sign that his role in the Diagram had changed due to Jasnah sparing him, but then again maybe that’s me just not being clever enough to see the whole thing.
I’m not sure if anyone has already made this assumption but it would be interesting to see what people think of it regardless.
Deliberately encoding information for people with a specific intelligence level doesn’t fit T.’s mindset. When he is too smart he just doesn’t want to waste time with spelling everything out that is so obvious anyway. How did anyone get him to take the time to make up the test questions?
I just assumed he made the decision to test himself on one of the days when his empathy and intelligence were about level, probably writing somewhere that he had to take the tests regardless of anything he says after the point of writing and I assume signing the document.
@Scáth: I use Firefox, if that helps any.
@38 necessary eagle
I am using chrome. I will give another shot, when next WoB are needed. Thank you!
@@@@@ several – Taravangian designed the tests himself, though not on the same day he wrote the Diagram. He made the decision himself that if he was either too dumb OR too smart he shouldn’t be allowed to change policy. It was the result of a brilliant day when he very nearly implemented a policy that would likely have set his city in rebellion.
@Scáth, Tor’s comment system is proprietary and I don’t know, but for most of them you can’t post anything with certain HTML tags or any JavaScript in it. Maybe you’re copying the WoB from a site that has forbidden code? Try pasting the WoB into a plain text editor (Notepad for Windows, gedit for Linux) and then copying from that into the comment field.
I am embarrassed it took me this long to figure out.
Taravangian is an in-progress Bondsmith. He is to the Nightwatcher what Gavilar was to the Stormfather before his death, in fact. Think about it.
@42 Carl
Could you elaborate?
I always expected Mr. T was also influenced by Cultivation directly. We don’t have any textual evidence for that, but we also don’t see any contact between Taravangian and the Nightwatcher – or do you think is high IQ days (and maybe even his below average days) are sent by her similarly as the Stormfather proto-Bondsmiths received the visions ?
@41 Carl
I copy paste the WoB from Arcanum, but I could be snagging links as I highlight that could be causing the issues you mention, so thank you, you have been a huge help! I will definitely try that out! In fact I will test it below!
Paladin Brewer [PENDING REVIEW]
We know that Hoid was offered a Shard and turned it down. Was he offered a specific Shard?
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
He was. There is one of the Shards that he would’ve… yeah.
Paladin Brewer [PENDING REVIEW]
Would he have been the 17th person or did someone take his place?
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
No. Someone took his place.
edit: sweet it worked! that will save me so much time! Thank you!
@42 Carl
That is a prevailing theory. Don’t be embarrassed. People tend to discount him as a possibility because of his actions seem evil, and in line with Odium even though Gavilar was actively trying to bring about a desolation, and was in the process of bonding the stormfather to become a bondsmith. It can most definitely be said that Taravangian is trying to unite the world. Just he is going about it a different way than Dalinar. I think the theory is totally valid, though I myself do not think he will become one. I think Cultivation’s plan for him is to stymie Odium, and I do not think he could successfully do so if he bonds the nightwatcher and becomes an official bondsmith. But that is just my own thoughts/interpretation. Taravangian as a bondsmith is totally plausible to me.
I concur that Taravanginan being Nightwatcher Bondsmith is a valid theory. It may not happen but it could. In addition to the Gavilar candidacy just look at the number of missteps Dalinar had before he gained the bond and even once he obtained it. The nature of the Ideals pretty much excludes nobody. There can be no journey without a beginning after all.
I don’t say that Taravangian CAN’T be a Bondsmith. I agree that the oaths are up to interpretation. But Taravangian being a Bondsmith is really a theory? Ok. There is a theory for basically everything. But what are the indicators for Taravangian as Bondsmith-material? His deal with Odium shows that he just wants to survive. He thinks that Karbranths population surviving is sufficient…
I still think the Diagram was created with the help of Cultivation to mislead Odium. If Mr. T becomes a Bondsmith, I am not sure this plan(t) will work out.
No one thinks that Taravangian is a Bondsmith, or at least I don’t. Notice that I compared him to Gavilar, not Dalinar that time. He’s sort of on his way to it, as Gavilar was. He hasn’t said the Immortal Words or anything, but he’s getting visions from the NIghtwatcher just as Gavilar was from the Stormfather. (I should mention that Gavilar’s visions are confirmed by WoB but aren’t in the text.)
Radiants can obviously have committed terrible deeds. Look at Dalinar. Look at Szeth. Look at Shallan. Look at Jasnah. All murderers. Jasnah even seems to have a utilitarian philosophy not that different from Taravangian’s, for that matter.
I fully agree that Taravangian might be on the path of becoming a Bondsmith and that his Macchiavellian behavior would not hinder him to say the Words. But just to get it right.. You think his days of intelligence (when he is able to extrapolate possible future events) are visions coming from the Nightwatcher?
The Diagram itself is the vision from the Nightwatcher. Well, not so much a vision but a glimpse into the Spiritual Realm mixed with the capacity to understand what he saw. He was already more brilliant than many gave him credit for so it didn’t take much for him to gain understanding of many of the events the Diagram predicts, yet some of the events he could not have predicted without Shardic intervention. The message he read when Odium shows up for the meeting for example.
As for me, I base Taravanginan’s candidacy for Bondsmith on him being Dalinar’s dark mirror. Now how a Bond would interact with his Boon/Curse cycle I haven’t a clue.
@49 EvilMonkey
Well.. Then we are basically on the same page (although I am not convinced regarding the Taravangian-Bondsmith-Theory). I thought I overlooked some additional clues. So thanks for replying @EvilMonkey and @carl :-)
Taravangian complains that he mostly has average days. Cultivation is about growing, not being static. Perhaps he grows from either very intelligent or very compassionate to a middle where he has enough of both. When he has reached that state he will have the capacity to save he world he asked for.
@45 EvilMonkey
Very true.
@46 bird
I have caught up with the other comments, and will try and respond as appropriate to each. The arguments in favor of Taravangian being a fledgling radiant bondsmith/in the process of becoming one
-he is trying to unite humanity to survive the coming desolation (like Dalinar, trying to unite instead of divide. Just he is doing it in the manner that young dalinar would, by killing any who oppose)
-Gavilar received the same visions as Dalinar, yet Gavilar came to the completely different conclusion of bringing on the desolation to unite humanity against a joint threat. It has been confirmed Gavilar was in the process of becoming a bondsmith.
Ted Herman (paraphrased)
Has Dalinar been on the Bondsmith path for a long time? How about Gavilar?
Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)
Yes to both.
Brandon said that Gavilar had been on the Bondsmith path for longer than Dalinar has been.
-As per Brandon, Journey before Destination could still apply. For an Elsecaller the survival of the species is the journey.
AndrewHB
I wondered if I could follow up to that Machiavelli question. Would Elsecallers be a– one of those other, uh– one of those…
Brandon Sanderson
So, yeah. Elsecallers are fairly compatible. Like, Elsecallers feel like the journey is… the journey is the entire species, right? And that the journey is the destination. *inaudible*
-Every action Taravangian has taken (in his view, whether it is misguided or not), has been taken with the intent to unite humanity and help them survive Odium. He feels he himself is doomed. His actions are to preserve others, not himself. Just he believes there is only a small portion he will be able to preserve.
So it is very possible that Taravangian could be a “bondsmith in training”. I agree the one reason I do not see this happening, is if Taravangian becomes a bondsmith, he basically reveals his hand, and can no longer delude and mislead Odium as Cultivation’s plant. Perhaps when he can no longer function as one for Cultivation, he will fully bond his spren? Like when the true purpose of the diagram is revealed, and it accomplished as much as it was supposed to, then he rapidly swears the earlier oaths (like szeth did), and catches up to Dalinar.
@47 Carl
I have included the WoB regarding Gavilar for reference.
Questioner
The visions Dalinar gets in WoK always struck me as odd – you don’t just look at the past, you are able to act within this experience. Now we know that Gavilar was also on the way to being a Bondsmith – was he acting in a different way? Were the visions only basically the same but different in the end depending on the personal reactions? Is this something like a test?
Brandon Sanderson
He did see the same visions. They were the same thing. But… I will say that his reaction to them were very different from Dalinar’s reactions to them. Anyway it was difficult for the Stormfather without a bond to determine/to tell the difference between very easily. When Spren are bonded, they gain a lot more ability to understand the world around then, so you’ll find out soon more stuff about this in the third book.
Since this is the first time i am going to try to post multiple WoB, I am going to post it first and then edit to include the WoB just in case.
edit: wahoo worked without a hitch! Thanks again!
We have no reason to believe that getting visions was ever a normal part of becoming a Bondsmith. The Stormfather was instructed by Honor, as he was Splintering, to give this set of visions to likely people. Previous Stormfather-Bondsmiths certainly wouldn’t have gotten these visions, and there’s nothing to imply that they got any kind of visions at all. Cultivation is still alive, so there’s no reason to assume she would have the Nightwatcher giving visions to anyone. That doesn’t prove she isn’t, but the foundation of the theory is pretty shaky.
@Wetlandernw, however my foundation is the “parallel characters” thing I keep harping on. Thus Taravangian as direct parallel to Dalinar would experience similar things.
Carl, sure, but we have no confirmation of that theory either. Basing one theory on another theory is even shakier. You may be right, of course; I just feel the need to make sure the basis is understood for what it is. (Also, I’m not at all convinced that Sanderson would set up so many parallels in one series, nor that he would take them this far if he did.)
You are of course right that there is no proof, Alice, and I didn’t mean to imply that there was. Just a fan theory.
I love theories. I’ve just learned through experience (!) to make sure I remember which ideas are confirmed and which are not, no matter how solid I think it is!
Well, I have a lot to catch up on (I stopped visiting Tor shortly before the holidays due to busyness an an extended vacation).
I do love the idea of Nightwatcher (or Cultivation) playing the long game and T totally misinterpreting what his giftcurse is. No particular theories on what that will look like, but am eager to find out.